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Post by Lady Elwen on Feb 16, 2005 2:30:31 GMT -5
As a random point I noticed coming through The Hobbit, has anyone else noticed the difference in the Elves?
In the Hobbit, the Elves are almost childishly goofy in Rivendell (the only Elves we see, granted...), and do nothing but sing odd songs while hiding in the brush.
Compare that to LoTR where the Elves are shown as the wise councilors they are, giving advice (or not, as the case may be), and partaking in actual discussion...
Just curious to see what other's takes might be on that...
~ Elwen
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Post by Varda on Feb 24, 2005 15:54:12 GMT -5
Hiya!
Nice site, by the way!
But anyway, to your question, yeah, I did sort of notice it, and I thought it was really weird. There's probably some significance in it; I just can't see it.
Maybe it has something to do with the different times that he wrote both novels? I mean, his stuff really changed around over the course of his writing Middle-Earth...
Elwen, you said you've read all his other work, so you should know that - like in the Lost Tales, all the names and races and everything else is all different.
Think that has something to do with it?
~ Varda
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Post by Lady Elwen on Feb 25, 2005 0:01:32 GMT -5
Hi yourself! Thanks, and welcome. Yeah, no kidding - if there's some symbolic point, I can't see it... And yes, the time difference, sure, but those weren't written that far apart, were they? I don't think so, anyway... but yeah, the changes are creepy... I mean, how many changes did Beren and Thingol undergo? And Yavanna was Palurien? Uh-huh... Maybe that does explain it... I have no idea... I need to go through his letters again and see, although I don't think there was any mention of that... ~ Elwen
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Post by Varda on Feb 28, 2005 2:42:11 GMT -5
Oh, good point... I'm too hung up on HOME and how that's so weird compared to LoTR. (And yeah, Beren and Thingol are something else...)
You have his letters? Nice! I really want a copy, but can't find one anywhere near me. But aside from that, yeah, I'm curious. It just doesn't theoretically make sense. It jumps around - he's not entirely consistent outside of a book. Like within LoTR, it was great, and within the Hobbit, but there's some minor discrepancies when you connect them. Nothing major, but it's there.
Maybe there just isn't a thing for the Elves - it was just there. Maybe to symbolize the difference in how the Elves react situationally? (i.e. when the fate of the world is at stake and when it's not?)
~ Varda
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Post by mirluinwen on Feb 28, 2005 7:57:20 GMT -5
maybe the elves portrayed in the hobbit were just a facade to hide their true meaning.
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Post by Lady Elwen on Feb 28, 2005 21:41:04 GMT -5
Could be - it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I mean, they mention the wisdom of the Elves and whatnot, speak about Elrond in a rather high esteem, and then surround his house with a bunch of Elves that vaguely remind of the North Pole! So I just can't see the reasoning there: why raise them up so high and show them in two totally different lights? Maybe it is situational, but would a race so supposedly full of wisdom and grace be that weird in a time of what is, to them, total peace? ~ Elwen
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Elbereth
Ranger
~The light of Il?vatar lives still in her face.~
Posts: 190
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Post by Elbereth on Mar 1, 2005 0:46:40 GMT -5
Oooh, good point! Yeah, I have noticed that, and I don't get it either.
I agree with Mirluinwen (?) in that it might have been some facade of their true nature, but I also agree that it really doesn't seem to have a reason that makes sense.
The best I can tell is maybe that they have a different persona in times of war than out of it, but yeah - would it be thatdifferent?
~ Elbereth
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Post by The One and Only Skande on Mar 2, 2005 2:48:33 GMT -5
Wow, another interesting topic and a good point! I too, have noticed the differences in The Hobbit's elves and the LotR Trilogy elves. Since Professor Tolkien is no longer alive, obviously we'll never know the true reasons behind the change, but I'm certainly positive it was for the better!
Also, it's possible that Tolkien wrote the Hobbit with a not-yet-complete idea of what he wanted the elves to be, and so catered to his generation's portrayal of them while he was himself getting a feel for ME elves. And once he dedcided what he wanted them to be like in the Trilogy, he certainly couldn't go back and change the entire Hobbit, already published, even if he had wanted to.
Or he could have gone over the Hobbit and realized he hated the way the elves looked in it and decided in his next books to have them more as we think of them now. Perhaps he intended to explain the change and it slipped his mind, maybe he wanted to leave that end hanging. Again, another finer point of Tolkien we may never understand.
But is there truly any competition for which version of the elves we like better? Not for me! :-)
-Skande
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Elbereth
Ranger
~The light of Il?vatar lives still in her face.~
Posts: 190
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Post by Elbereth on Mar 8, 2005 16:12:50 GMT -5
Hmm... good point Skande... Never considered that... I do suppose it's possible - friends of mine write all the time, and they're always complaining about how they write and then rewrite, and then rewrite some more. I suppose that could be a relevant point. *laughs* No preference, eh? Well, personally, I like the LoTR Elves, as well as those of the Sil, more than I do those of the Hobbit... ~ Elbereth
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Post by Lady Elwen on Mar 11, 2005 2:39:04 GMT -5
*laughs* Considering I'm one of those people who write, and rewrite, and rewrite again, yeah, I can see where that would come from!! And seeing's Tolkien's conception of ME in general seemed to change drastically over the years, I'd say that wasn't too far-fetched a notion. But yes, I like the post and pre-Hobbit Elves much better than those actually in the Hobbit itself... I think it stays more to the true quality of the Elves as we're shown. ~ Elwen
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Post by Varda on Mar 14, 2005 0:40:44 GMT -5
Yeah, going back to the facade thing, while it would be an explanation, I just don't see why there would be a need to hide their true persona at all. It isn't as though it would help or harm them one to the other. What Skande said makes sense as well - that Tolkien decided he hated the Hobbit's Elves and went from there to revamp them. I'm just not sure I like that idea. The change certainly was for the better, and I have to agree - I like the LoTR Elves much better. I think it holds a bit more to what the Elves are "supposed" to be. ~ Varda
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Post by Mithwen Delbaeth on May 20, 2005 8:31:00 GMT -5
I've noticed that too. Maybe they're different because the Hobbit was geared towards younger people and LotR towards older people. In the Hobbit they were kind of goofy. Younger people may be more used to that sort of elves and older people could more easily understood a different sort f elves. But the elves of Mirkwood were more like the elves in LotR weren't they? Maybe he was trying to create a difference between the Rivendel elves and the Mirkwood elves.
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