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Post by Lady Elwen on Feb 21, 2005 1:23:10 GMT -5
Anyone seen (or even heard of, for that matter...) David Salo's A Gateway to Sindarin? Believe it or not, there is actually a published book about Tolkien's primary Elven tongue!
It's hardcover, and runs about $50, but it is worth it, if you really like the language! I swear that just about everything you ever cared to know about Sindarin has been written here. Sindarin-English and English-Sindarin dictionary, glossary of roots (and not being a linguist, I didn't get some of that...), translations of random texts in various other obscure novels from Tolkien, and tons of other stuff.
I've been raving about this book to the point that I get weird looks, but if you really appreciate Tolkien and like his languages, you should try to take a look at this book, even if you can't purchase it!
~ Elwen
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Post by Varda on Feb 28, 2005 2:30:51 GMT -5
There's a book? Gah!!! *faints* Where'd you get a copy?? I really want to see one!!!!! ~ Varda
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Post by Lady Elwen on Feb 28, 2005 22:03:00 GMT -5
*grins* Yup, there's a book... Um, I don't think you can find one on the shelves - I had to order mine, and it took almost six weeks, since it came straight from the publisher.
If you like the language, though, definitely worth getting. You can probably place the order at any bookstore - I ordered mine from a Barnes & Noble...
~ Elwen
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Post by Varda on Mar 1, 2005 15:39:46 GMT -5
Well darn... I'll have to see what I can do for (or to, depending) my local bookstore in order to get my hands on a copy.
And yeah, I love the languages Tolkien's made, so I'll definitely be checking that out.
~ Varda
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Angel
:~TOA~: Fellowship
.+*Elven Beauty*+.
Posts: 60
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Post by Angel on Mar 2, 2005 3:15:10 GMT -5
Oh really? Wow i never knew that - but then, i'm not that deep into the elvish languages, i find them amazing, but too complicated for my taste lol
~ Angel ~
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Post by Lady Elwen on Mar 2, 2005 19:06:45 GMT -5
And I'm the weird person that gets involved in almost everything the guy has ever done.... Ah, well, it takes all kinds, eh? But it is a good book. Lots of translations - like the Elven hymns to Elbereth and such. ~ Elwen
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 14, 2005 16:50:49 GMT -5
*Still a little confused about the set-up, but I'll figure it out later...* ELWEN!!! I got that book, isn't it great? It is totally awesome, I think I am in love (with the book of course, ). So what do you think of it? In my opinion, it is a lot easier to read that Helge Fauskanger's stuff on Ardalambion (thank God!) and it's really clear.
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Post by Lady Elwen on Mar 14, 2005 18:27:26 GMT -5
ANA!!!! Wait - confused about the forum, or the book? *confused....* Ah!! Someone else who has it!! Of all people, I should have known you would. And yes, it's fantastic... I agree - I am in love... Oh yeah - way easier to understand than the Ardalambion courses. Both are written by linguists, but Ardalambion's are way more hardcore and complicated. Really easy to go through, even when I've only had time to skim through it. I really like David Salo's writing style, too; pretty fluid and comprehensible. Granted, he's the linguist, but hey. I really hope he does one for Quenya! Sindarin's much more known than Quenya, and when I spoke with him (Salo, that is...), he said that he'd be concentrating on Quenya a little more. I'd really like to see that... ~ Elwen
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 15, 2005 16:40:14 GMT -5
;D I was confused about the set-up of the forum but I figured it out. Oooh, go me. Of course, I got it! Just as I knew that all of people you would too. See, we Elvish language freaks must stick together, I say. And I say it's a very good thing it is not as confusing as Ardalambion. It's one of the courses I think I could only go through once in my life and never again... But it was well worth the effort, for I think I understand the language fully and much better than any other language. It's kind of odd that most people consider Sindarin the main Elvish language when I think that Quenya is, especially since it is more developed than Sindarin was. *Shrug* Darn movie. It ruins everything. Just kidding, I know Sindarin is more well known, but I have always thought Sindarin was harder to learn than Quenya, and that more people have studied Quenya. *jaw drop* Y..yo...you...you spoke with him??!! Are you serious??!! *gasp* I am so jealous!!! What I wouldn't give to talk to any of the main Elvish linguists! Wow! Like I would ask HF how he dealt with conditional tenses since there are none in Quenya... And I would LOVE to see a book on Quenya. Of course, I propably spent about 50 dollars on ink and paper when I printed the whole Ardalambion course out, but Salo's views and opinions on the language would be much worth the 50 dollars for a Quenya book. So... Elwen... want to practice our newly acquired knowledge? Mod Note: Please don't overuse the smilies; this post has been left as is, but just keep that in mind.[/size]
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Post by Lady Elwen on Mar 15, 2005 17:20:25 GMT -5
*laughs* Yeah, go you! Elvish language freaks, eh? Well, considering there aren't that many of us, sure, why not? Hehe... Yeah, Ardalambion's thorough, but it's one of those that you can only go through so much before you fall over and have a headache that you can't wake up from... Well, by means of usage, Sindarin is the primary language now, since Quenya has reverted to a ceremonial language, and Sindarin is more of everyday speech... Unless, of course, you're a high-elf in Lothlorien... In terms of development, then yes, Quenya is the primary language, since there's a lot more information on it... Depends on how you look at it. *chuckles* Yeah, sort of... Does email count? And actually, if you'd like to see it, it's posted on the main site under "References". I did it to conduct a sort of interview with him, and I was very pleased with the results. He's extremely polite - and considering how long it took for me to get my nerve up to contact him, wasn't I ever grateful for that!!! But yeah, I'm tempted to ask HF about that; it's an odd thing to consider, and Quenya has so many oddities about it. Both do, actually, but never mind that... Yeah, no kidding - I'd spend another 50 on a Quenya book from him; his Sindarin one is incredible. Heh... Sure... why not? Like I said, I haven't had time to do much more than skim the text (it's now my project over the summer...), and I'm a bit rusty, especially with conjugation and the like, but if you'd like to start a discussion, go ahead and open a new thread... I won't object!! ~ Elwen
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 17, 2005 17:55:22 GMT -5
I'll have to go look at the resources to read that soon. I once posted in the same thread as him. Okay, so it was more like these incredibly intelligent posters posting about the details of language that I have no idea about while I said, "Wow, look, it's David Salo!" just so I could say I posted in a same thread as him. But I still count it! And I was hoping you had done more on reading the book than I've done, because I've only skimmed it through and I was going to use you as a motivation to actually study it. LOL!. Anywho, I liked your added thing to say what this forum's about, I'm more than willing to translate stuff. One, it's a lot of fun, and two, practice! I've been reviewing my Quenya lately (it's been over a year now since I've completed the Quenya Course) for lessons I am writing on Parma, so fortunately I have not lost all of my knowledge for Quenya. YAY! Anyway, talk to you soon!
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Post by Lady Elwen on Mar 19, 2005 2:06:50 GMT -5
Haha... yes, you will.... Oh, well, that's thinking!! Haha... I really want to go and join the E.L.F. board, but I'm not at all sure that my ideas would be considered up to par with what they're discussing. There's a lot I'd like to say, but among a bunch of linguists, I'm not sure quite how stupid I care to sound.... Gee, I'm so flattered. Well, I'll put it this way: I've skimmed the whole thing, analyzed the two dictionaries to the death (minus the list of roots), and read the first three chapter or so on history, pronunciation, and the writing systems. Taking a look at the mutations before ch. 4, though... Ah, good to know; yeah, between the two of us, at least for now, it should get done. Maybe... hehe... Good for you!! And actually, since I don't have the time, if we get more members interested in the languages, would you be interested in conducting a similar course here? (hehe... I should make up something like "language admin" or something for you. And speaking of language, did you notice the little glitch in Gilraen's linnod? (RoTK) Go see the "Cinema" board with that thread and see if it makes sense. ~ Elwen
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Elbereth
Ranger
~The light of Il?vatar lives still in her face.~
Posts: 190
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Post by Elbereth on Mar 21, 2005 0:52:02 GMT -5
*whistles* Wow.... You two really know what you're doing with this stuff, don't you? Interesting.... I adore the languages, but can't really get very far with them.... I partly wish to blame Ardalambion's course... I tried it, and could barely comprehend it, so I got mad and ignored it... So I'd be very interested to see your methods on teaching the language, Ana, once the site opened up a bit... Quite pointless to teach one person who can't even get around to the site daily... Hehe!! My thread!! I'm so proud! The one point on language that I know!! I can construct the whole thing; I just can't write it or read it from scratch! So is the Elvish in the Specifications post correct, then? Elwen, you seriously talked to David Salo?? That's so totally ace!! I would pay to talk to the guy!! ~ Elbereth
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Post by Lady Elwen on Mar 22, 2005 1:02:36 GMT -5
*laughs* In all honesty, I think Ana's got a much more solid basis in the language overall than I do - I just happen to know more of the random little obscurities that come from reading too much of ME's history. Yeah, the Ardalambion course, thorough and solid as it is, is pretty complicated. You really need a clear head and some serious determination to get through it. There's actually a really good set of Elvish courses - both Sindarin and Quenya - out online for free PDF download. It's really clear and easy to understands - I picked up Sindarin basics in literally five minutes. They're written by Thorsten Renk, and cover the subject almost as well as the HF courses, if not better, simply because they're easy to comprehend. If you'd like the link, it's under the "References" section of the main site, and from there, under "Tolkien Sources": Parma Tyelpelassiva. Well, Ana, you've another taker. Yeah, good catch with that thread; I've been griping about that forever... I do believe so... I pulled that up from scratch, so... Ana? Wanna run a check? It's Sindarin... Haha yes, I did... Albeit online through email, but I did talk to him. It was quite the experience... In a good way of course!! ~ Elwen
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 26, 2005 19:03:22 GMT -5
Hi everyone! It's been a while. I was on a trip for Spring Break, in case anyone missed me. Elwen, I feel the exact same way as you when it comes to joining ELF. I don't think I know enough, and I am afraid all my questions have been asked and discussed before. *shrug* And yes, well, you should feel flattered. :-) You are one of the few people I feel are on my level that I've met online concerning the languages, so forgive me for using you to help me learn them better/more. ;-) And I would love to start a course here too! And speaking of teaching... Welcome Elbereth! I would love to teach you. And I know what you mean about Ardalambion being a bit daunting. It took me near a year to go through it. *shock* But I have a determination that borderlines on stubbornness, even if I had to read through several chapters over and over again until I figured out what the world he was talking about. :-) So I know how you feel. I will head over to your thread soon. I saw the thread right before I left and didn't have time to respond because I was supposed to be packing for my trip. OOH! And those courses Elwen was talking about, the ones to learn Sindarin and Quenya by Thorsten Renk, I am not able to get because my computer can't download PDF files. *sob* And I really wanted to look at them too... I think Elwen gave me the links to that place long again at Parma... It is certainly worth a look, even if your computer is stupid. I'll check the Specifications in a second. :-)
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Post by Lady Elwen on Mar 29, 2005 15:11:59 GMT -5
Of course we missed you! Yeah... perhaps one day I'll decide to go and try my luck, but then... You'd probably do better than I would - your grasp of it, at least with Quenya, is much stronger than mine. You'd probably have something more cohesive to bring up there... *grins* Oh, I do - trust me... And I suppose we're even, since I do the same thing with you - "Crap, she's read that part of whatever it is; I should go look at it and see if it makes any sense!!" Hehe... All righty then - once we start picking up a little more, I'll put up a poll and see how many people would be interested. And well said - Ardalambion requires lots of coffee and sheer stubbornness. And lots of time.... Emphasis on lots... I read the first chater three times, attempted the rest of it, and found the other courses. I'm living off those now. hehe... You can't? Darned it!! I'll have to see if I can save them differently and then send them to you - you really need to see those! ~ Elwen
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 29, 2005 16:47:21 GMT -5
LOL! See, you did better than me at first for the Ardalambion course. :-D I read the first chapter through once, didn't understand what in the world he was talking about, gave up then moved on in the hopes I understood what he would be talking about later. I only came back to read through it several months later. There is one thing that I must commend Fauskanger for, and that is his over-reading into everything followed by tons of examples. It feels like there aren't enough examples for David Salo's book. :-( If I was to categorize both of them, Fauskanger's would be an actual class while Salo's would be an instructional pamphlet of notes that a teacher would hand out. It's not bad, just different. So, in order to fully comprend it, I am now going to go in search of Sindarin things to apply my knowledge I absorbed from Salo's book.
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Post by Lady Elwen on Mar 31, 2005 1:54:06 GMT -5
*laughs* I have a few more chapters in Ardalambion to go - it's not even printed out anymore. One day, when I have the inclination, I'll finish Fauskanger's courses.....
But I can tell that we both think that the other is more advanced, so I think we shall just agree to disagree and go from there! ;D
I'm not sure I'd count Salo's book as an instuctional pamphlet, though.... Close, and the details for examples are really tough to come by, but the book has way too much information for that category.... It's less in-depth with clarification, but more so when it comes to definitive concepts... Did that make sense? I see it more as two different versions of a textbook - one more focused on the core, concrete concepts that the other.
I'm actually going to see if I can conduct a sort of interview with Fauskanger... and I'm debating on asking Thorsten Renk... See if I can get up the guts to do that... I've spoken with both of then before, but never thought to really drill them..... Will probably just send him some of the same questions that I originally asked Salo... If I do, anything you want me to ask?
~ Elwen
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 31, 2005 17:47:38 GMT -5
Really? How many more chapters? I have everything printed it out and hole-punched and put in a binder. It is the only thing I have ever studied that I actually have organized. Amazing isn't it? And another binder for a English-Quenya dictionary, and another that has parts of a course for Sindarin that I printed off of councilofelrond.com (not the best, too much of a summary of it, so I didn't finish that one. Which is why some of my Sindarin studies has holes in it. Like word order and prepositions, for example). That's exactly what I mean. Salo doesn't clarify as much as Fauskanger does. I just didn't explain it as well as you did. Fauskanger seemed to just go on and on and on about a subject (and sometimes making you more confused as he did it) while Salo gives you all the information at once and bam! He doesn't seem to apply it to a whole thing, if that makes any sense. Oooh! Oooh! Ask him about conditionals for Quenya! Please?!!? *Big puppy dog eyes* Wow, I could never get up the guts for that... Oh and tell Fauskanger he's my hero.... jk.
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Post by Lady Elwen on Apr 2, 2005 1:05:37 GMT -5
I actually don't know.... Not a whole lot, but still... I've done that with the Parma Tyelpelassiva courses, though - paired with English-Sindarin and Sindarin-English dictionaries. Done for the Quenya course, too.... Yeah, the COE stuff is okay, but not necessarily completely accurate... "...a good effort, but with some errors." (Yeah, another note I asked Salo.... I'm so horrible....) I don't think there's anything out there that's totally complete - I mean, the language itself isn't complete, so how can we have completed info? It's... I don't know... you take what you're given, I guess... Exactly - not enough correlation from Salo's book. It's there, but not necessarily enough to really make it click. Fauskanger... yeah, occasionally, he just confuses you...... *nods* To both of them? Not sure if I can contact Fauskanger again, though.... Last I checked, there was something keeping him from responding to most email... Oh well... I asked about really menial things and got a response, so maybe I'll try.... Might not be for a few months, though... And normally, I'd never do this, but I'm so into the topic that I kind of feel I should..... And they're both extremely nice - I'll give them that, for certain.... Although Thorsten Renk did make me feel a little.... weird, for lack of a better word - I was so nervous to email him, and in a business mindset that I began the email with "to whom it may concern"... And it was only to one person! I was kind of like, "oh...." afterwards..... But yeah.... My lovely embarassing moments.... ~ Elwen
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