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Post by Indes Elfwine on May 24, 2005 14:38:25 GMT -5
Ok ... Arwen is a very tricky subject to discus because most LotR fans have strong opinions about her. I'm going to try not to offend anyone here. These are just my opinions. I dislike Arwen. I dislike her intensely. We'll start with Book!Arwen, whom I have fewer problems with. She meets Aragorn in a glade, looking all pretty and Luthien-y. He calls her 'Tinuviel! Tinuviel!'. She is very grave and stern with him but the minute he mentions he's heir to the throne of Gondor, she chirps up very conveniently all of a sudden. I also know the point of Aragorn and Arwen marrying was to reunite the lost blood of Numenor and all that hoopla, but when one of the first things you say to a guy is 'We are akin from afar', you really shouldn't be thinking about pursuing a romantic relationship with him. The kids ... while many will say that they were old enough to look after themselves, I disagree. Perhaps it's just me coming from a big, close-knit family but I think you'll always a parent figure around, no matter how old you are. I don't think Arwen was actually dying, I think she just chose to die because she had no more hope. In my opinion, deliberately orphaning her kids like that was despicable, no matter what the circumstances were. Even if she was dying, the months it would have taken her to travel to Lorien could have been spent at home with her family. Then there's the fact that people always compare her to Luthien. She was, in my opinion, nothing like Luthien. Luthien had a far more domineering, intimidating father figure than Arwen who disapproved far more of her love for a mortal. He locked her up in a tower for petes sake! Luthien escaped and fought by Beren's side because her love for him was unconditional. Arwen should have done the same; and please spare me all that 'hope' rambling. Hope is beautiful, hope is lovely but hope is pretty useless in the middle of a war. Fighting, strength, courage ... all these are much more useful. Now ... on to Movie!Arwen! *Rubs hands in glee* When I first read the books, I fell a little in love with Glorfindel. I was at the age where I still believed in fairytales but they were losing their luster. They didn't excite me anymore. Then I read FotR and Glorfindel charged in on his white horse, braving all peril to help Frodo, strong, wise, valiant, with shining golden hair ... he was the epitome of all my Prince Charmings. Then I went to the cinema to see what sort of a job P.J. had made of the films, looking forward to seeing how they'd shown him ... and instead I got a whiny little elleth with a tacky necklace, stealing my Glori's horse and Elrond's magic. <sarcasm> You can imagine how overjoyed I was. <sarcasm> The list goes on ... she completely clichéd Eowyn, my childhood heroine and idol. I've heard people who've only seen the movies refer to my precious shieldmaiden as an Arwen-wannabe. The purple dress in the TTT gazebo scene ... that was, in my opinion, the kind of outfit a medieval courtesan should wear, not an ethereal Elven maid. The whole Arwen's-life-is-tied-to-the-fate-of-the-Ring storyline was ridiculous. The Evenstar necklace I also found tacky and the sappy flashbacks slowed the momentum of the films for me. Even were I not a passionate Aragorn/Eowyn shipper I would have found Tyler and Mortenson's chemistry-less, boring love scenes hard to stomach. I cannot forgive P.J. for cutting the Faramir/Eowyn romance. I think sending Arwen to the Havens not only shattered her 'symbol of hope' image but also wasted time that could have been spent on the characters that actually appear in the book for more than a few paragraphs. That rant did me so much good! *Exits*
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Post by Julia on May 24, 2005 15:38:02 GMT -5
Ok... so Frodo = pain = Arwen? In this case being pampered for thousands of years as Daddy's babygirl, then living happily with a magnificent husband and kids equals going through innumerable hardships and really traumatic events, and experiencing firsthand the effects of the greatest evil in Middle Earth, having your tongue bitten off, and nearly going mad. Oh, sure. Silly meh. It's really quite the same... And about leaving the kids... Sam couldn't really leave his kids, as they weren't living with him anymore. He had two daughters, and they were both married. They weren't even living in the same city anymore. Besides, I only know that I could never leave my children. I don't think a good mother is capable of that.
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Post by Julia on May 24, 2005 15:39:46 GMT -5
Sorry, not tongue, finger.
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Post by Anaroriel on May 24, 2005 21:54:29 GMT -5
*loses cool* Don't you guys get it??!! Arwen's children were grown up with children of their own!!!!! I am about 90% certain of it!!! For Pete's sake, do you really think they waited ten years before more than a hundred year marriage ended to start having babies??!! Do you really think that? My God, how many grandmothers and grandfathers do you know pack up and move to Florida to retire? Why is it so upsetting and irresponsible to leave 80 year-old children to visit the place where she spent a majority of her Elven life at??!! I seriously don't get what the problem is...
And yes, I have a feeling Pippin and Merry knew they were not coming back because they gave their offices to their sons and left like they were not coming back. And again, hello? Though Sam had "grown-up children" look what I said above. Arwen's children were probably reaching the 100 year markers!!
Ok, Indes Elfwine, you have some wonderful points. I applaud your well thought out arguments. In fact, I agree with some of your movie points. I agree with the life-tied-to-the-ring thing is bogus. Every fan does. No problem there. But who's fate isn't tied to the Ring? That's besides the point, and I digress. And the sending her to the Havens totally ruined whatever character she had. Fine. But attacking her outfits??!! How do you know what Middle-Earth people wear, anyhow? Her outfit might be totally appropriate, and frankly, we don't know. Again, I digress. MovieArwen isn't worth debating, to be honest. We must move on, right?
But I agree with you for some of the book points. Arwen wasn't Luthien. She wasn't! Wasn't, wasn't, wasn't! Wasn't a reincarnate, wasn't the same story, wasn't, wasn't, wasn't! Even Tolkien said this in one of his letters! They just looked alike and acted alike. Before you pounce on the "acted alike" it is impossible to improve. Just because they were given different circumstances with the same choices doesn't mean that they weren't alike in personality. We wouldn't be able to tell unless we a) had scenes that were similar or both of them played major roles in any of Tolkien's books or b) had the exact same circumstances. Which they don't, so we can't tell.
So Luthien was brave and mighty and powerful and faced dangerous adventures. Kudos for her, Arwen didn't need to. Does that make her a bad person? Is any woman a bad person if they don't run off to war with their hubby? Frankly, I think the story would be ruined if Arwen joined Aragorn. What about Aragorn and his trying to find the right path on his own? Luthien and Beren's story is about Luthien, Aragorn and Arwen's story is about Aragorn. Luthien could have stayed home, but Beren would have failed. Arwen could have gone along, but Aragorn needed to learn how to be a leader, and having elven girlfriend to protect and take care of in front of all these men wouldn't have been good. Aragorn needed to be a leader, Beren and Luthien were a team.
And maybe Arwen chirps out at the mention of his lineage because maybe she thought it was funny? God forbid the woman laugh at a man who's trying to impress her. It's like a man trying to impress a woman who is a professional basketball player with his basketball game win at the local gym.
And you know, Aragorn's the one who pursued the relationship, not Arwen. And who could blame her? Just look at all the fan girls who are in love with Aragorn right now(the older crowd really, the younger go for Legolas).
And Julia, ok, so maybe I overplayed that a bit. I do that sometimes, it happens. No matter, I think everyone has pain, and everyone has suffering. Who can decide if one is greater than the other? They both lost, different circumstances. *shrug* Though Frodo's pain was immense, and I apologize for that, I wasn't thinking that through. But they both left home because of their pain, and that was what I was trying to get at.
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Post by Coriandra on May 27, 2005 20:15:18 GMT -5
Yes, but Sam had many relatives who could take care of his children and all of his children were likely old enough to take care of themselves. Aragorn became king when he was 87 and lived to be 210, so their children must have been adults too when Arwen left, probably with families of their own.
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Post by Lady Elwen on Jun 4, 2005 22:02:26 GMT -5
Okay, let's not lose tempers here....... I commend everyone here for excellent arguments; some of the best I've seen on this debate lately. But Coriandra said it as well as any: Aragorn lived until he was 210 and married Arwen when he was 87; one would hope that they didn't wait until he was about 200 to start having kids.... That's a pretty long lifespan, so it can be assumed that the children were more than capable of handling the affairs of state etc. and coping on their own. And no matter how immense the loss may have been, would having only a shell of the vibrant, hope-filled person that their mother once was remaining be a worthwhile result of having her stay with them past Aragorn's death? She knew her children were grown and capable of surviving without her; because of that, she lost her reason to truly live, because she lost the people she lived for. Clothes... well, none of us are really equipped to say - for one, look at the clothes of our society now, and then look at the clothes of amny previous eras. Many of them were none too conservative. Luthien... Well, Arwen wasn't Luthien. We know that. And Ana summed up my points better than I would, so see her argument. Sending Arwen to the Havens was bad in terms of what we expected. But in terms of how they presented Elrond's argument, I think I'd have left, too. What shows her... let's call it duration, for lack of a better word, is the fact that she returned from that journey that could have promised her everlasting life and peace. The movie version was overdone; but as I have said many times before, a good movie adaptation of a book, to me, involves an understanding to those who have read the books and those who have not. Putting Arwen in verbatim with her canon portrayal would have left the audience reeling when she appeared in the end at the coronation. It simply wouldn't make sense. Glorfindel... I do wish they'd stuck to canon in all aspects. But for non-Tolkienites, sitting through a movie that took 48 hours to watch would have been out of the question. I'd pay for a movie that thorough; not a whole lot of the general public would. So, by that token, removing Glorfindel was acceptable. It gave a chance to develop Arwen (differently from canon, but it developed her nonetheless in bringing her forth, showing her character - albeit changed - and showing her relationship with Aragorn) and saved the presence of another extra who had what was ultimately a cursory part in the books. Objectively, Glorfindel rescued Frodo, spoke briefly at the council, and then disappeared. With Arwen and perking up at Aragorn's lineage, think on that for a second: if you met a person whom you considered attractive that you might like, wouldn't it suddenly make that person just that more stunning if they were royalty? It doesn't have to be for petty reasons of self-gain or want of recognition; it just happens. It's human nature, to be impressed by that which we think above us, and one isn't in any place to criticize that. For pain, what Ana said stands: how do we measure it? What is excruciating to one may be minimal to another. (Yeah, I did a research paper on assisted suicide and got into that whole argument...) We are not at liberty to judge what others may feel. It's like saying that there's a guidebook on the feelings before... suicide, or some such thing. Arwen suffered emotional pain and suffering; Frodo suffered both. But how do we know how either chose to accept it? In the end, both chose to leave, as did Merry, Pippin, and Sam, and so on, where the arguments I have are previously stated by others in ways that I see no relevance to repeat. So there you go... ~ Elwen
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Post by Mithwen Delbaeth on Jun 16, 2005 15:28:31 GMT -5
Didn't she love her children? If Aragorn was the only one she cared about did that mean she hated her children so much that she could not at least spend her last moments whith them instead of going off to mope? If I only had a few months to live I'd spend time with my friends and family not go someplace secluded to cry for a while. In the Encyclopidia of Arda there is actual proof that Arwen wanted to be queen. This is what is said: Arwen forsook her Elven immortality to wed Aragorn II Elessar and become Queen of the Reunited Kingdom.
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Post by Anaroriel on Jun 16, 2005 16:18:16 GMT -5
..... Umm, ok. I'm sorry, but that doesn't mean she wanted to be queen. Furthermore, Tolkien didn't write that, someone else did. Perhaps that was their intrepretation? Besides, that was the outcome, not her actual desire and purpose.
She did not hate her children. Or at least, I don't believe she hated her children. It doesn't seem plausible that the Elf similar to Luthien in character which was based off of Tolkien's wife hated her children. And also, just because that's what you wouldn't do, doesn't mean that what someone else does is wrong. That's opinion. Besides, is it more fair of her to be a shadow of a person she was or to have her children remember her as she was before her husband's death? I suppose that is more opinion too.
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Post by Mithwen Delbaeth on Jun 18, 2005 20:50:15 GMT -5
I guess what I was trying to say by her loving her children is that she should have someting to live for while they were alive. That she wasn't staying in Middle-Earth only because of Aragorn. Wern't her children nice enough to live for?
Just a little off topic, does anyone know how long after Eldarion Aragorn and Arwen's daughters were born?
I looked online and when Aragorn died Eldarion was around Aragorn's age when Aragorn became king so depending on how long after Eldarion his sisters were born they could have been quite young.
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Post by Lady Elwen on Jun 18, 2005 21:16:42 GMT -5
There's no verified record by Tolkien or his experts upon when Eldarion took the throne - it could be any number of years apart, since the Fourth Age is not something that is expanded upon.
For example in my series, Eldarion would end up roughly over a hundred by the time he took the throne; others say he was much younger, others even older. There can be many assumed times, but you truthfully cannot know.
She may not have been staying just for Aragorn. But it's like a mother whose children have married and moved out and whose husband has passed away. Her leaving didn't signify that she didn't care for her children. With her children grown and likely gone off - honestly - her daughters simply couldn't have been too terribly young... - she didn't have the same duties to raising them and caring for them as she would have in earlier years. So she lost her drive. Perhaps you wouldn't leave to be alone if you were faced with this sort of situation - that does not make it morally, or otherwise, wrong. I would do the same, and not just because I like Arwen. You could see it that she trusted her children enough to rule capably in her stead as queen and so, without her light in life or anything strong keeping her there (i.e. raising children, ruling a country by duty, etc.) she chose to leave.
It goes both ways, and it depends upon which you choose to read.
~ Elwen
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Post by Mithwen Delbaeth on Aug 9, 2005 19:17:40 GMT -5
Wouldn't her grandchildren bring her joy?
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Post by Mithwen Delbaeth on Aug 16, 2005 10:26:35 GMT -5
Here's all the reasons I don't like Arwen. (and in them rest the power to resist the dredded marshmellow creme ) Books: 1) In the books she did absolutly nothing except sit safe at home doing embroidery. 2) She scorned her people as wicked fools. 3) She betrayed her children and went off to mope. 4) She made Aragorn wait for her about 60 years to marry him. Selfish? I think so. She has forever to live, he doesn't. She waited for him to become king. Do you think she'd have stayed in Middle-Earth if the Ring hadn't been destroyed? No, she'd have gone to Valinor to be safe, she wouldn't have stayed and helped. 5) Aragorn is her cousin. Can we say INCEST? 6) She regrets her choice of being mortal. 7) She only bears the "likeness" of Luthien - none of her bravery, love, and courage. Movies: 1) She stole Glorfindel's role. 2) She stole a lot of screentime from stuff that could have been put in that was in the books. 3) What made her think the Wraiths WOULDN'T "Come and claim him"? They are driven by the ring and well, Frodo has the Ring. When they begin to cross the ford, she has a very scared, panicked look. She obviously is afraid of them and underestimated their power and drive. This directly contradicts her earlier statement of "I do not fear them" when, as this scene proves, she is terrified of them. 4)"You don't need to put a sword in her hand to make her strong" -Liv Tyler in an interview for the EE. Then why did you? If that is so, then why do exactly that? 5) Would Gandalf or Elrond have told HER of the ring when even Gandalf and Galadriel are tempted by it? No. 6) She has known Frodo for all of 20 minutes, the majority of those on his part were spent catatonic and oozey. Why does she cry over him? She doesn't know he has the ring. An example of her highly unstable personality in the films. 7) There is much made of death and "the gift" of mortals throughout the book and the movies. Then why, when told by her father that Aragorn will die eventually, does she seem so surprised? All mortals die, Aragorn is a mortal, therefore Aragorn will die, to use the old Platonic saying. This can lead to only one conclusion, that Arwen has not really thought out her "choice" as much as she should have and like the child she is, she went and did this impulsively. 8) How can she tell Aragorn "Trust this, trust us" when she herself does not? When she, when confronted with the reality of her choice, runs away at her father's prompting? 9) She is obviously unable to take a hint. When Aragorn "breaks up" with her, she is notably shocked, because she is most likely used to getting whatever she wants all the time. 10) "You saw my son." How does she know it is her son? She is nowhere in the vision. More correctly she say ARAGORN'S son. Because he wears the evenstar signifies nothing. Why would Aragorn not give this to his child as a family heirloom to remember their adopted-aunt (which Arwen is, because Elrond is Aragorn's adopted father, thus making Arwen his sister) by? 11) If she is so beloved by her people, then why is it when she turns back after hallucinating, not one elf even looks or tries to stop her. Figwit just stands there as she goes. For being so very beloved, they sure seem to not care about her. 12) Surely Elrond saw a child in his vision but did not tell her. He had a good reason too. The point would have been silly. He was assuming that his daughter, at 2000 years old, would have enough sense to think Man+woman=baby. She obviously doesn't, which expains Elrond's rather annoyed "Arwen" after her declaration of "you saw my son!"
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Post by Anaroriel on Aug 16, 2005 18:55:37 GMT -5
I am torn... well, can I at least give my honest opinions on some of these points, then convert later? Let's start with the books, and we can work on the movies later. 1) In the books she did absolutly nothing except sit safe at home doing embroidery.I still don't get why this is so wrong. Eowyn was an abnormal character. Most girls don't crossdress. Most girls still do not crossdress. I stay at home, and I NEVER want to join the army. Sorry, but no. What else would she have done? She at least made a banner for Aragorn that proved to be useful, so it could have been worse. 2) She scorned her people as wicked fools. Fair point, but don't all characters have to have a fault? Who wants a perfect character? I don't. Mary-Sues. Yuck. SOO boring. And she realized her faults at the end. I don't think she was ever cruel to them, and she must have tolerated them quite a bit if she married a man and had his babies. 3) She betrayed her children and went off to mope.You know my views on this. And she wasn't moping, she was grieving. Her children did not need her anymore, and her husband just died. She had no reason to stay, just as grandparents leave to Florida and die there all the time. 4) She made Aragorn wait for her about 60 years to marry him. Selfish? I think so. She has forever to live, he doesn't. She waited for him to become king. Do you think she'd have stayed in Middle-Earth if the Ring hadn't been destroyed? No, she'd have gone to Valinor to be safe, she wouldn't have stayed and helped. Oh, yeah. They would have gotten married in the middle of a war. Nice. "Oh no, Arwen, I can't leave from our honeymoon! Oh, sure, there are millions of people counting on me, and my destiny to fufill, but I don't think I can leave you and not have a normal relationship together!" Truthfully, I think they were smart to wait. "Let's get your destiny into place, so later when we are married, you won't have to leave me to help the Fellowship, control the Army of the Dead and take control of Minas Tirith, and worry about me the entire time, and possibly leave how many children we have before you leave." It's like getting your careers settled before starting a family. 5) Aragorn is her cousin. Can we say INCEST? Well, it's legal in West Virginia and Alabama. And if that works for them, then why can't ME people do it? Besides, they were stretched cousins. They weren't first cousins. 6) She regrets her choice of being mortal. She does? 7) She only bears the "likeness" of Luthien - none of her bravery, love, and courage. And boy is it a crime if you aren't exactly like your ancestors. I regret it everyday I'm not exactly like my grandmother. [/sarcasm] Hon, there are different kinds of bravery, love and courage. Frodo showed mercy to those who were destroying the Shire, does that mean he is not brave and courageous like Aragorn, who destroyed every orc he could get his hands on? I don't think so. We didn't see enough of Arwen to know if she had courage, bravery, etc or not. Just because Tolkien did not write anything, didn't mean she didn't. And Arwen had love. She had love, and you can't convince me otherwise. Just a few notes from your movie list, the rest I can't argue too much about: 3) What made her think the Wraiths WOULDN'T "Come and claim him"? Umm, because they hesitated at the water's edge? Maybe that's why? [n]When they begin to cross the ford, she has a very scared, panicked look. She obviously is afraid of them and underestimated their power and drive. This directly contradicts her earlier statement of "I do not fear them" when, as this scene proves, she is terrified of them.[/b] And so it contradicts. What's wrong with fear? How can one show courage if one does not fear something? She shows courage by risking her life to save Frodo's, and by pulling out her sword to do battle. There is nothing wrong with fear, and you cannot tell me that the Wraiths are beings not to cause a little bit of trembling. 4)"You don't need to put a sword in her hand to make her strong" -Liv Tyler in an interview for the EE. Then why did you? If that is so, then why do exactly that? Because the director told her to. If she refused, they could have gotten someone else. What else what she was supposed to do? 5) Would Gandalf or Elrond have told HER of the ring when even Gandalf and Galadriel are tempted by it? No. We don't even know if book-Arwen knew of the Ring, and she may very well have. Why not tell her? It's not like she comes across it everyday. And she went out to search for Frodo and Aragorn. She has to know the reason for her journey. And she may have read it somewhere. If Gandalf could find it in records, so could she. 6) She has known Frodo for all of 20 minutes, the majority of those on his part were spent catatonic and oozey. Why does she cry over him? She doesn't know he has the ring. An example of her highly unstable personality in the films. *Shock* Because he's dying in front of her! What kind of cruel, cold image would she have presented the audience if she looked on still faced? Of course she cried! People cry over characters in movies that they've never met or only saw for two hours, and yet here was this small defensive hobbit in front of her! Anyone, and everyone would have cried if they had been her. Besides, she had just spent all her energy trying to save him, and then he gets that close to dying and she feels like she failed him. 7) There is much made of death and "the gift" of mortals throughout the book and the movies. Then why, when told by her father that Aragorn will die eventually, does she seem so surprised? All mortals die, Aragorn is a mortal, therefore Aragorn will die, to use the old Platonic saying. This can lead to only one conclusion, that Arwen has not really thought out her "choice" as much as she should have and like the child she is, she went and did this impulsively. No one expects or wants loved ones to die. It's still a shocker for me to imagine that one day every one of my family will die. No one wants to be reminded of this. And she spent her entire life around immortals, so the genuine shock and implication of this is enough to bring tears to my eyes. Besides, Elrond, her father, is very cruel and doesn't spare her feelings at all. 8) How can she tell Aragorn "Trust this, trust us" when she herself does not? When she, when confronted with the reality of her choice, runs away at her father's prompting? Her father is very wise and so she would naturally obey him. But she did come back. It is a fair point, however. 9) She is obviously unable to take a hint. When Aragorn "breaks up" with her, she is notably shocked, because she is most likely used to getting whatever she wants all the time. It WAS kind of sudden, especially since the night before they declared their undying love to one another. Besides, who isn't hurt, shocked, etc, when they are dumped? Especially by the one she thought she was going to marry? It's like being left at the altar... so embarrassing, by the way. And who says she gets everything she wants? 10) "You saw my son." How does she know it is her son? She is nowhere in the vision. More correctly she say ARAGORN'S son. Because he wears the evenstar signifies nothing. Why would Aragorn not give this to his child as a family heirloom to remember their adopted-aunt (which Arwen is, because Elrond is Aragorn's adopted father, thus making Arwen his sister) by? Would Aragorn be so cruel as to give the necklace of his long-time fling to his child by another woman? I mean, really. Besides, it was a sign. So the audience would get it? 11) If she is so beloved by her people, then why is it when she turns back after hallucinating, not one elf even looks or tries to stop her. Figwit just stands there as she goes. For being so very beloved, they sure seem to not care about her. *shakes head* They looked like hippies on drugs. They were so focused, I don't think they would have noticed if the sky was falling. They were dazed, and probably told by Peter Jackson not to pay attention to what was happening like good extras. 12) Surely Elrond saw a child in his vision but did not tell her. He had a good reason too. The point would have been silly. He was assuming that his daughter, at 2000 years old, would have enough sense to think Man+woman=baby. She obviously doesn't, which expains Elrond's rather annoyed "Arwen" after her declaration of "you saw my son!" What?!? I am so confused. Besides, she was 3000 years old. And he was probably annoyed because she was back. And he didn't tell her because he wanted to save her life, and so by telling her she didn't have a future she would leave with him. A child means there is a future with Aragorn. I still am not certain what you are getting at. The rest of undisputed, I guess. I am having trouble converting to the Dark Side, I think.
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Post by Mithwen Delbaeth on Aug 17, 2005 8:51:20 GMT -5
Yes amny grandparents do move off to Florida, but they still visit their children sometimes. Arwen never came back. What she did I look on as suicide. It said she "laid to rest on Cerin-Amroth" (or something to that effect. I don't memorize these things) It doesn't say how long she stayed alive after Aragorn died, but in that time she could have spent time with her kids. She doesn't really represent a simbol of hope to me. If she was so full of hope why did she go off to greive?
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Post by Anaroriel on Aug 17, 2005 16:54:18 GMT -5
If she was so full of hope why did she go off to greive?
Because her husband, the love of her life left her. He died, and he wasn't coming back. People are allowed to mourn those who have died, right? She was hope for Aragorn, so what kind of symbol of hope did she really need to be if the person she was hope for needed her no longer? People need to grieve, and Arwen was just showing her love for Aragorn by mourning him. What would her people think of her if she didn't mourn, and didn't show grief? And her children too? How would they react if Arwen stayed without any emotion and was a burden for her children? I don't see how this story, in this regard, is any different from Eowyn's story. Eowyn wanted to die, so went off to war. A completely different reason, but they still left to die. Eowyn had Faramir to pull her out, Arwen had no one.
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Post by Lady Elwen on Aug 17, 2005 20:33:26 GMT -5
Okay... So I'm not much of one to go all out on these, but I'm going to torture poor Eldariel here. 1) In the books she did absolutly nothing except sit safe at home doing embroidery.We don't know that. Nor do we know the full extent of what that embroidered banner could have meant. It was a way of proclaiming the Return of the long-awaited King of Gondor in the midst of battle without blowing a horn, yelling proclamations, and thereby getting several more innocent people killed in the process. That banner, while pretty, did serve as more than an ornament, and one is led to believe that Arwen sewed as more of a reason that to simply keep herself busy during the war. Aragorn had no standard to bear for battle to announce himself, and one may notice that he did not choose to randomly unfurl it; he did so when the time was right and it proved to work. Eomer certainly wasn't stupid enough to kill Aragorn without it, but the Orcs were likely stupid enough to not understand who Aragorn was. The fact that he had that banner flying was a more obvious hint. The same goes for the charge upon the Morannon: any fool could have gone to proclaim himself the next Heir of Isildur. Between Banner, Company, Armour, and Herald, there was little room for doubt as to his true identity as said Heir. We also don't know that Arwen didn't do anything to help the "war effort", just as we do not know that she did. We cannot make that distinction; only Tolkien himself may have known if she did or didn't, and even he may not have even thought about it. For all we know, Arwen and her people spent time sending out supplies and it merely wasn't mentioned in the course of the story. Admittedly, it isn't likely, but the possiblity remains and none among us has the authority to say what she did and did not do when the author himself never specified. In that time, women were known to stay home and work to support their men from the home front; we can't know if Arwen and other women did so because the focus of LoTR is not on Arwen and her story - it is the story of the Fellowship and their Quest. Arwen, much like Elrond and the others, is an accessory, appearing when necessary. 2) She scorned her people as wicked fools.The people that she scorns are the people who have long been derived from such pure bloodlines as those of the Numenoreans. She is not scorning her uncle and his people; she is not scorning Aragorn and theirs. She is scorning those who rebelled against the Valar to take what was forbidden them. For them, it was, in all effect, like touching a hot stove when you know you will be burned and then yelling at the stove afterwards. If you know, why do it? If someone did that and were complaining about the burn to you, wouldn't you be thinking that it was a rather stupid thing to do? And now, because she is seeing the full effect of mortality, she cannot scorn them, because she can, in a way, understand why it was done. And regardless, these people were, to her, different. They were born mortal; she was not. They lived life as we do, fully aware of death and its possibilities and what it means to us and those we love, and also likely jealous of the fact that the Eldar were given eternal life and they were not. Immortals, one can guess from implication in various areas, do not understand that, because the concept of death isn't commonplace to be easily understood. Arwen lost her mother, but she did not lose her to death. She lost her uncle to death, but she never knew him. She lost her father, but it was through her choice not to leave with him. Aragorn was, essentially, the first one close to her that she lost to death and eternity. He was the first that she loved that she lost in a way that she knew she would never see again, and she knew that this had nothing to do with her choice. Willing or no, she would lose him. Painful as it may have been to see her mother suffer and leave, she lived with the hope that she would see her again. She chose to make the decision that would sunder her from her father forever. She could not make the choice to never see Aragorn again. That choice was never hers to make and it forced her to understand loss, at which point she began to understand and pity those which she had scorned, because she could now see what they had fought so hard and so unreasonably for. There are reasons why it is said that one should never judge another "until you've walked a mile in their shoes", because it is not until then that we can understand what drives their actions. Yes, she passed her judgement before she had followed their path, but she never put it out in concrete form until she herself finally understood. The first observation and judgement is, admittedly, deserving of some reproach, but the fact that she never spoke of it to shame either them or herself until she knew and understood is commendable. 3) She betrayed her children and went off to mope.We don't know when she left. It may have been the same day or it may have been twenty years later when she had told her children of her decision to leave. Her children were also fully grown, likely with children of their own and lives to attend to. Losing a parent hurts, but living with the hollow shell of a once-vibrant one is worse. And she did not betray them. Look up "betrayal" in the dictionary. Arwen's actions do not fit any of them. She did not go behind their backs and break a promise. There was never any promise that she would remain forever. She did not leave simply because she did not love her children, or so we can assume; likewise can we assume that she left because the love she bore for Aragorn was so immense that without him, she was left with a void in her heart that would not heal. Have you ever lost something so dear to you that you felt that life was not worth living any longer? And Sam, Merry, and Pippin went off and left their children too. Why not hate them along with Arwen? Because the point remains that they left. Sam lost Rosie and left a few months later. Despite losing Rosie, he also had children - they were grown, but still his children. And yet he left, finally accepting the gift of passage that had been granted to him when he took up the Ring. He still, in effect, left, and that seems to be also the point with debating Arwen. It was not his time to die, and though he did not leave to do so, he had the time to remain there to be with his children until he did. Similarly, Arwen did not leave to die immediately. She did not walk out the Gates of Gondor to fall upon a sword in the nearest ditch. She went to Lorien and there dwelt until her time was up. Similarly for Merry and Pippin, the fact of the matter is that they left. In Appendix B, under the entry for the year 1484, this is said: "...a message came...that King Eomer wished to see Master Holdwine once again. Meriadoc was then old (102) but still hale. He took counse with his friend the Thain, and soon after they handed over their goods and offices to their sons and rode away over the Sarn Ford, and they were not seen again in the Shire. It was heard afterward that Master Meriadoc came to Edoras and was with King Eomer before he died in that autumn. Then he and Thain Peregrin went to Gondor and passed what short years were left to them in that realm, until they died and were laid in Rath Dinen among the great of Gondor." Merry and Pippin were both wise enough to know when their time was upon them. Most people know when their years are drawing to a close, though they generally do not know the exact dates. Therefore, after the passing of Eomer, they had the chance to return to the Shire and bid a final, permanent farewell to their children, family, friends, etc. Instead, they chose to go to Gondor and instead passed their final years there. They may not have left the Shire to die before their time, but they left and did not return, even when chance permitted. Time is what one makes of it and no more, for time cannot run the course of one's life except in living and dying. Time does not make the choices for us in any direct manner, except perhaps to nudge us in certain directions as ours comes to running out. We must take what we are given and make what we will of it and do what we wish with it in order to give it reason in our lives, because no matter how much time we have, it means nothing if do naught with it. Think about that. I do not say that to sound condescending, but it is the truth. A pastor friend said that to me years ago and I have found it true. 4) She made Aragorn wait for her about 60 years to marry him. Selfish? I think so. She has forever to live, he doesn't. She waited for him to become king. Do you think she'd have stayed in Middle-Earth if the Ring hadn't been destroyed? No, she'd have gone to Valinor to be safe, she wouldn't have stayed and helped.Um, no she didn't. Elrond did. "Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undomiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor." If life was anything like former culture, a father's word was, to all effects, law, and children obeyed their wishes without question. If he told you to jump, you didn't question why; you simply asked "How far?" Elrond would not allow Aragorn to wed Arwen while he was less than he could be. Not until he became all that he could would he be worthy of Arwen in a father's eyes, and even then, no parent wishes to lose their child. Elrond's loss was not surrounding losing his child to the neighbor next door or the country two over. It was losing her forever. And since Aragorn was technically Elrond's son, he would not disobey him either. Aragorn and Arwen were kept apart, but despite Elrond, they still met on Cerin Amroth and pledged themselves to each other. They waited because they had to. That's all. 5) Aragorn is her cousin. Can we say INCEST?Aragorn is her cousin, but they may as well not be: let's call it about a 40-generation bloodline removal and then there you have their relationship. There it is not only legal, but their mixed bloodlines are by that point so watered down that they may as well not exist. 6) She regrets her choice of being mortal.Right. Where does it say this? She expresses regret that Aragorn must pass from her, because it is here that she understands the full impact of death - that it isn't merely leaving to be seen again later. See my above response with death and immortality. She wishes he could remain with her, but never does she say "I wish I had not made this choice." 7) She only bears the "likeness' of Luthien - none of her bravery, love, and courage.She's never supposed to be Luthien. "Likeness" does not mean that she shares her personality. And moreover, Arwen is Arwen and Luthien is Luthien. Why compare two different women with each other? They can never be each other, nor should they be expected to be. Arwen's strength, bravery, and love came from a different side of her than Luthien's did. Luthien went with Beren on the Quest because it was just them and they had a protector. Were Arwen to accompany Aragorn on his Quest, she would have been a hindrance - Elf or no, her fight training would have been from times of peace, not a fight for survival. The entirety of the army would be looking to keep an eye on her as well as the battle, shifting their concentration. Arwen's strength and love came from home, from giving Aragorn something to hope for and watch as his "light at the end of the tunnel", because without that light, one is bound to reach despair - if there is nothing to grasp at the end of the darkness but further darkness, why keep trying? Arwen was Aragorn's light, and the knowledge of her kept him going. *~*~*~*~*~* Now for your movie list... 1) She stole Glorfindel's role.Yes, she did, and that was horrible, but look at it from the perspective of people new to Tolkien who had never read the books. Then consider the cost of extras... Glorfindel didn't really do that much. I love him, but he pretty much appeared at the Fords and said a line or two in Council - most of which was cut anyway, so it doesn't matter. By removing him and replacing him with Arwen (let's agree that artistic license has some bearing here), they were able to introduce Arwen to the audience and give a more concrete feel to her part, so that they weren't all flipping out when she showed up and married Aragorn. Yes, it was a bad choice for us because we know what should have been, but it beats confusing an entire audience and driving them away by having 60 characters with complicated names that do little more than have a couple lines and some equestrian action... 2) She stole a lot of screentime from stuff that could have been put in that was in the books.See above argument. That and the audience needs to be reminded of her and her relationship with Aragorn on occasion. What worked on paper would not have worked well on film. By having her in more often, people were able to see the development of their relationship. And it wasn't entirely made up but instead derived from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. 3) What made her think the Wraiths WOULDN'T "Come and claim him"? They are driven by the ring and well, Frodo has the Ring. When they begin to cross the ford, she has a very scared, panicked look. She obviously is afraid of them and underestimated their power and drive. This directly contradicts her earlier statement of "I do not fear them" when, as this scene proves, she is terrified of them.Courage is not the absence of fear; it's the realization that something else is more important than fear. The Wraiths are enough to scare the spit out of pretty much anything. Arwen also knew she could summon the Bruinen upon the Wraiths (in the book, it was automatic by Elrond and Gandalf), and so she challenged them to come for Frodo. If you're waiting for your opponent to come and they hesitate, wouldn't you repeat your challenge? Because they took the bait and she "drowned" them. "I do not fear them" doesn't mean that they don't make her think twice. It means that she won't run away from them or give in because she's weak. 4)"You don't need to put a sword in her hand to make her strong" -Liv Tyler in an interview for the EE. Then why did you? If that is so, then why do exactly that?First yes, what Ana said. But just because it's not necessary, does it mean you don't do it? Technically, Gandalf didn't need a sword - he had power and a staff. Shouldn't he, by that token, not carried one either? And you don't need a car to go someplace. So does the world need to just obliterate cars? It's the same argument. She carried one because she could, and it was an aid, not because she had to. 5) Would Gandalf or Elrond have told HER of the ring when even Gandalf and Galadriel are tempted by it? No.Arwen doesn't need to know of the Ring. But how do we know if she did or did not know where it was? There were certainly enough records of it floating around in the more thorough archives, and it wasn't like she was going to go and wait in Orodruin for Frodo to show up and kill him. Why not tell her? We don't know whether anyone did or no... And it can be assumed that she and Elrond spoke on occasion.... 6) She has known Frodo for all of 20 minutes, the majority of those on his part were spent catatonic and oozey. Why does she cry over him? She doesn't know he has the ring. An example of her highly unstable personality in the films.BECAUSE SHE IS WATCHING HIM DIE!!!! What kind of person can sit by and watch someone they've just spent several hours riding with to save die in front of their eyes without feeling some kind of pain? Not only does she likely feel that she failed him, but she's an Elf - they don't know the full extent of death and what it means to mortals, and then here she's getting the firsthand view of it with someone she's trying to save. Wouldn't that make you cry? 7) There is much made of death and "the gift" of mortals throughout the book and the movies. Then why, when told by her father that Aragorn will die eventually, does she seem so surprised? All mortals die, Aragorn is a mortal, therefore Aragorn will die, to use the old Platonic saying. This can lead to only one conclusion, that Arwen has not really thought out her "choice" as much as she should have and like the child she is, she went and did this impulsively.Okay, I already wrote this, but here: Immortals, one can guess from implication in various areas, do not understand that, because the concept of death isn't commonplace to be easily understood. Arwen lost her mother, but she did not lose her to death. She lost her uncle to death, but she never knew him. She's about to lose her father, but it's through her choice not to leave with him. Aragorn is, essentially, the first one close to her that she will lose to death and eternity. He is the first that she loved that she could lose in a way that she knew she would never see again, and she knows that this has nothing to do with her choice. Willing or no, she would lose him. Painful as it may have been to see her mother suffer and leave, she lived with the hope that she would see her again. She chose to make the decision that would sunder her from her father forever. She cannot make the choice to never see Aragorn again. That choice was never hers to make and it forces her to understand loss, especially as Elrond's sitting there shoving that point in her face and making it sound as though he's some gracious God because he's trying to spare her future pain... 8) How can she tell Aragorn "Trust this, trust us" when she herself does not? When she, when confronted with the reality of her choice, runs away at her father's prompting?See my point about a father's wishes under the "she made him wait 60 years" argument... 9) She is obviously unable to take a hint. When Aragorn "breaks up" with her, she is notably shocked, because she is most likely used to getting whatever she wants all the time.It was sudden. He walked up and pretty much broke it off - and none too gently, either. He showed up and said "it's over". Wouldn't that shock you a bit if a man you'd just pledged yourself to and that you both thought you'd spend eternity with just walked up and told you to forget about it? And start reading people's eyes; it's interesting: maybe Viggo's just a good actor, but there's no truth in his eyes. He's trying to sound as though he really believes it's for Arwen's good, but there's no confirmation of that belief in his eyes. It hurts him as much as it does Arwen because he's breaking it off because Elrond's being a stubborn idiot. 10) "You saw my son." How does she know it is her son? She is nowhere in the vision. More correctly she say ARAGORN'S son. Because he wears the evenstar signifies nothing. Why would Aragorn not give this to his child as a family heirloom to remember their adopted-aunt (which Arwen is, because Elrond is Aragorn's adopted father, thus making Arwen his sister) by?Evenstar = Arwen. Would Aragorn give that Evenstar to any of his children if he married another woman? For one thing, his wife would probably have something to say about his keeping the heirloom from another woman, and moreover, if anyone would have kept it, Aragorn would. And yes, Aragorn was Elrond's foster son, but even so, her met Arwen when he was 20... She was, for the most part, not even there to be considered as a sister... 11) If she is so beloved by her people, then why is it when she turns back after hallucinating, not one elf even looks or tries to stop her. Figwit just stands there as she goes. For being so very beloved, they sure seem to not care about her.She's not hallucinating. It's a vision - Elves are gifted with foresight, some more strongly than others, and so she is seeing a vision to show her what she stands to lose. And Elves are much more calm about observations than we are: every Elf in that line probably saw her leave and wondered where in Hell she was going. But have you ever seen someone go by that you know will simply plow you over without thinking and continue if you try to stop them? Because Arwen probably looked like that. I don't know about you, but if I'd just gotten an idea that my dad had purposely kept information about my child from me and then sent me off to go where I couldn't return from, I'd be pretty irritated and just head back there to yell at him... 12) Surely Elrond saw a child in his vision but did not tell her. He had a good reason too. The point would have been silly. He was assuming that his daughter, at 2000 years old, would have enough sense to think Man+woman=baby. She obviously doesn't, which expains Elrond's rather annoyed "Arwen" after her declaration of "you saw my son!"Elrond didn't tell her in order to get her to pass. He wanted her to pass so that he wouldn't lose his only daughter. And why else would the child be wearing the Evenstar? Like Ana said, would Aragorn just throw that on any child of his? If she was so full of hope why did she go off to greive?See the answer under "She betrayed her children and went off to mope". Right. So that's part of my spiel. Whee... I guess I'll never be converted over to the Dark Side... So bring on the marshmallow creme!! ;D ~ Elwen
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Post by Anaroriel on Aug 19, 2005 23:04:54 GMT -5
Geez. Here I thought I was being very thorough, and then comes Elwen. *Pulls out her jar of Marshmallow creme and eats it while reading* Erm, Elwen, for number two on the book list, I think she meant "Her people" as Arwen's subjects, the people she ruled. Not the Elves, the mortals. I actually watched Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings for the first time last night. I was amazed, I thought it would be a lot worse than it actually was. Okay, it wasn't fantastic, but it was much better than the Hobbit animation and the RotK animation, which was the worst, IMO. Anyway, my point is, I thought for certain that they would use Glorfindel because the first half of the movie was very similar to the books, even more so than PJ's LotR. Nope! They used Legolas. The point is, if PJ had not decided to use Arwen, he would have used Legolas, or another character that we would see later. Glorfindel is not an important character, and introducing him would be a waste of time. Bah, Elwen. You have to make sense of everything don't you? Like 11: I like hippies on drugs and not your 'They're Elves. They react better." Lol, I'm just teasing. What can I say? I'm anti-hate. I even like Denethor and Sauron and Saruman. And I felt sorry for the orcs. Legolas never did anything wrong, and there are millions of people who hate him. Poor Legolas.
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Post by Mithwen Delbaeth on Aug 20, 2005 11:23:04 GMT -5
I thought Sam had to leave. he was a Ringbearer and all the Ringbearers. Didn't the appendicces say that it was said he went to Valinor, last of the Ringbearers.
Merry and Pippin dd leave their children, yes, they chose to go to Gondor instead of home. They had likely already said goodbye to their loved ones in the Shire. There were people they loved in Gondor. They would have wanted to say bye to Aragorn and Legolas. And if Faramir and Eowyn were still alive they would liked to say bye to them as well. Beregond's son was probably still alive then too, and Pippin seemed to have been friends with him.
Arwen had no one to say good bye to in Lothlorien. She would never see her mother again either. Mortals and elves had different fates. She would see Aragorn again, she mst have known that. She was mortal therefore would have the same fate as Aragorn.
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Post by Anaroriel on Aug 20, 2005 19:13:13 GMT -5
Sam did not have to leave just because he was a Ringbearer, he chose to leave because he was a Ringbearer. If Rosie had not died, he would not have left.
Merry and Pippin dd leave their children, yes, they chose to go to Gondor instead of home. They had likely already said goodbye to their loved ones in the Shire. There were people they loved in Gondor.
And Arwen probably said farewell to her children too. I sincerely doubt her children woke up one morning, went to visit their mom, and she was gone. She pobably settled all the inheritance issues, said good bye and told them where she was going, and so forth. Arwen most likely did not just "disappear". Another thing, Lothlorien was home to her for a part of her lifetime, and it was also where she met and fell in love with Aragorn (officially, the Tinuviel bit wasn't that official). Her memories and family's presences were there, and she may have wanted to return there like Pippin and Merry returned to Gondor: to relive an earlier part of their lives.
And Arwen may not have known if she was to see Aragorn again. No one knows, really deeply truly knows if they will see their loved ones after death. No one has returned and confirmed this, so Arwen does not know like the rest of us don't know.
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Post by Mithwen Delbaeth on Sept 7, 2005 15:50:07 GMT -5
We don't know that. Nor do we know the full extent of what that embroidered banner could have meant. It was a way of proclaiming the Return of the long-awaited King of Gondor in the midst of battle without blowing a horn, yelling proclamations, and thereby getting several more innocent people killed in the process. That banner, while pretty, did serve as more than an ornament, and one is led to believe that Arwen sewed as more of a reason that to simply keep herself busy during the war. Aragorn had no standard to bear for battle to announce himself, and one may notice that he did not choose to randomly unfurl it; he did so when the time was right and it proved to work. Eomer certainly wasn't stupid enough to kill Aragorn without it, but the Orcs were likely stupid enough to not understand who Aragorn was. The fact that he had that banner flying was a more obvious hint. The same goes for the charge upon the Morannon: any fool could have gone to proclaim himself the next Heir of Isildur. Between Banner, Company, Armour, and Herald, there was little room for doubt as to his true identity as said Heir.
We also don't know that Arwen didn't do anything to help the "war effort", just as we do not know that she did. We cannot make that distinction; only Tolkien himself may have known if she did or didn't, and even he may not have even thought about it. For all we know, Arwen and her people spent time sending out supplies and it merely wasn't mentioned in the course of the story. Admittedly, it isn't likely, but the possiblity remains and none among us has the authority to say what she did and did not do when the author himself never specified.
Perhaps it did, but he could have gotten a banner anywhere. In unfurling the banner Aragorn destroyed their element of surprise. The Orcs can't have been too stupid to not reconise the White Tree. They had been fighting Gondor for a day, they should have known what the white tree had looked like by then. The Rohhirim may not have reconised them, but Eomer knew what Aragorn looked like. But Rangers do not look like Corsairs or Haradrim. And I hope the people of Rohan can tell the difference between elves and men or dwarves and men.
In that time, women were known to stay home and work to support their men from the home front; we can't know if Arwen and other women did so because the focus of LoTR is not on Arwen and her story - it is the story of the Fellowship and their Quest. Arwen, much like Elrond and the others, is an accessory, appearing when necessary.
Almost all of the other women metioned in LotR or the Silmarillion did something brave, Arwen didn't. I don't think that Arwen was afraid of needles. Luthien disobeyed her father and went to help Beren, Aredhel saved Meaglin by jumping in front of him and being killed by the poison dart that Eol meant to kill Meaglin, Idril helped her people escape being killed in Goldolin, Elwing dove into the sea instead of letting the Simaril be taken, Eowyn went against many years of tradition to ifight for her land and people and ahe killed the Witchking, and Morwen wouldn't let herself beleive that Hurin was dead and waited many years for him to return. Not all of them fought, but they all did something.
The people that she scorns are the people who have long been derived from such pure bloodlines as those of the Numenoreans. She is not scorning her uncle and his people; she is not scorning Aragorn and theirs. She is scorning those who rebelled against the Valar to take what was forbidden them. For them, it was, in all effect, like touching a hot stove when you know you will be burned and then yelling at the stove afterwards. If you know, why do it? If someone did that and were complaining about the burn to you, wouldn't you be thinking that it was a rather stupid thing to do? And now, because she is seeing the full effect of mortality, she cannot scorn them, because she can, in a way, understand why it was done.
I cannot blame them for fearing death. What is wrong with wanting something you can't have? Arwen didn't have to go out and say it. The people of Gondor were of the line of Numenor wern't they?
And regardless, these people were, to her, different. They were born mortal; she was not. They lived life as we do, fully aware of death and its possibilities and what it means to us and those we love, and also likely jealous of the fact that the Eldar were given eternal life and they were not. Immortals, one can guess from implication in various areas, do not understand that, because the concept of death isn't commonplace to be easily understood. Arwen lost her mother, but she did not lose her to death. She lost her uncle to death, but she never knew him. She lost her father, but it was through her choice not to leave with him. Aragorn was, essentially, the first one close to her that she lost to death and eternity. He was the first that she loved that she lost in a way that she knew she would never see again, and she knew that this had nothing to do with her choice. Willing or no, she would lose him. Painful as it may have been to see her mother suffer and leave, she lived with the hope that she would see her again. She chose to make the decision that would sunder her from her father forever. She could not make the choice to never see Aragorn again. That choice was never hers to make and it forced her to understand loss, at which point she began to understand and pity those which she had scorned, because she could now see what they had fought so hard and so unreasonably for. There are reasons why it is said that one should never judge another "until you've walked a mile in their shoes", because it is not until then that we can understand what drives their actions. Yes, she passed her judgement before she had followed their path, but she never put it out in concrete form until she herself finally understood. The first observation and judgement is, admittedly, deserving of some reproach, but the fact that she never spoke of it to shame either them or herself until she knew and understood is commendable.
You go against your own words here. Arwen knew she would never see her father and mother again and she chose that. Arwen should have thought before she spoke. Why didn't she think about her choice before? I don't think she did because if she didn't understand death then she must not have. She knew that she would have to leave Aragorn.
We don't know when she left. It may have been the same day or it may have been twenty years later when she had told her children of her decision to leave. Her children were also fully grown, likely with children of their own and lives to attend to. Losing a parent hurts, but living with the hollow shell of a once-vibrant one is worse. And she did not betray them. Look up "betrayal" in the dictionary. Arwen's actions do not fit any of them. She did not go behind their backs and break a promise. There was never any promise that she would remain forever. She did not leave simply because she did not love her children, or so we can assume; likewise can we assume that she left because the love she bore for Aragorn was so immense that without him, she was left with a void in her heart that would not heal. Have you ever lost something so dear to you that you felt that life was not worth living any longer?
If she loved him so much that when he died there was nothing left then she was overly obsessed with him. Didn't it say that Arwen would "Die when she had lost all she had gained" Wern't her children and granchildren gains?
And Sam, Merry, and Pippin went off and left their children too. Why not hate them along with Arwen? Because the point remains that they left. Sam lost Rosie and left a few months later. Despite losing Rosie, he also had children - they were grown, but still his children. And yet he left, finally accepting the gift of passage that had been granted to him when he took up the Ring. He still, in effect, left, and that seems to be also the point with debating Arwen. It was not his time to die, and though he did not leave to do so, he had the time to remain there to be with his children until he did. Similarly, Arwen did not leave to die immediately. She did not walk out the Gates of Gondor to fall upon a sword in the nearest ditch. She went to Lorien and there dwelt until her time was up.
I actually don't like Sam, Merry, and Pippin for that. They left their children and that was bad. But I can think of no other reasons to hate them, which is why I don't. Nobody if perfect. There are just other reasons why I hate Arwen.
Similarly for Merry and Pippin, the fact of the matter is that they left.
In Appendix B, under the entry for the year 1484, this is said: "...a message came...that King Eomer wished to see Master Holdwine once again. Meriadoc was then old (102) but still hale. He took counse with his friend the Thain, and soon after they handed over their goods and offices to their sons and rode away over the Sarn Ford, and they were not seen again in the Shire. It was heard afterward that Master Meriadoc came to Edoras and was with King Eomer before he died in that autumn. Then he and Thain Peregrin went to Gondor and passed what short years were left to them in that realm, until they died and were laid in Rath Dinen among the great of Gondor."
Merry and Pippin were both wise enough to know when their time was upon them. Most people know when their years are drawing to a close, though they generally do not know the exact dates. Therefore, after the passing of Eomer, they had the chance to return to the Shire and bid a final, permanent farewell to their children, family, friends, etc. Instead, they chose to go to Gondor and instead passed their final years there. They may not have left the Shire to die before their time, but they left and did not return, even when chance permitted.
See above answer.
Time is what one makes of it and no more, for time cannot run the course of one's life except in living and dying. Time does not make the choices for us in any direct manner, except perhaps to nudge us in certain directions as ours comes to running out. We must take what we are given and make what we will of it and do what we wish with it in order to give it reason in our lives, because no matter how much time we have, it means nothing if do naught with it. Think about that. I do not say that to sound condescending, but it is the truth. A pastor friend said that to me years ago and I have found it true.
Perhaps it is. I just think Arwen could have made better use for her time.
Um, no she didn't. Elrond did.
"Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undomiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor."
If life was anything like former culture, a father's word was, to all effects, law, and children obeyed their wishes without question. If he told you to jump, you didn't question why; you simply asked "How far?" Elrond would not allow Aragorn to wed Arwen while he was less than he could be. Not until he became all that he could would he be worthy of Arwen in a father's eyes, and even then, no parent wishes to lose their child. Elrond's loss was not surrounding losing his child to the neighbor next door or the country two over. It was losing her forever. And since Aragorn was technically Elrond's son, he would not disobey him either. Aragorn and Arwen were kept apart, but despite Elrond, they still met on Cerin Amroth and pledged themselves to each other. They waited because they had to. That's all.
If so, then wouldn't "pledging themselves to one another" be basically disobeying Elrond? Pledging themselves to one another certanly sounds like marrying to me. I think Elrond was a little too possesive.
Aragorn is her cousin, but they may as well not be: let's call it about a 40-generation bloodline removal and then there you have their relationship. There it is not only legal, but their mixed bloodlines are by that point so watered down that they may as well not exist.
Even so, they are still related. Aragorn is Elros's desendent. Arwen is Elros's neice. They are related no matter how many times removed. They are also adopted siblings.
Right. Where does it say this?
She expresses regret that Aragorn must pass from her, because it is here that she understands the full impact of death - that it isn't merely leaving to be seen again later. See my above response with death and immortality. She wishes he could remain with her, but never does she say "I wish I had not made this choice."
Arwen didn't want to loose Aragorn. She didn't want him to die and she didn't want to die. I interplet her regret as wishing the two of them could live an eterity together.
She's never supposed to be Luthien. "Likeness" does not mean that she shares her personality. And moreover, Arwen is Arwen and Luthien is Luthien. Why compare two different women with each other? They can never be each other, nor should they be expected to be. Arwen's strength, bravery, and love came from a different side of her than Luthien's did. Luthien went with Beren on the Quest because it was just them and they had a protector. Were Arwen to accompany Aragorn on his Quest, she would have been a hindrance - Elf or no, her fight training would have been from times of peace, not a fight for survival. The entirety of the army would be looking to keep an eye on her as well as the battle, shifting their concentration. Arwen's strength and love came from home, from giving Aragorn something to hope for and watch as his "light at the end of the tunnel", because without that light, one is bound to reach despair - if there is nothing to grasp at the end of the darkness but further darkness, why keep trying? Arwen was Aragorn's light, and the knowledge of her kept him going.
I don not get the whole "Arwen kept Aragorn from giving into Sauron" thing. Arwen can't have been the only thing in the whole wide world that kept Aragorn going. Aragorn would have kept going because of his duty to Gondor, his friends, and his family (by family I mean Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir).
*~*~*~*~*~*
Yes, she did, and that was horrible, but look at it from the perspective of people new to Tolkien who had never read the books. Then consider the cost of extras...
Glorfindel didn't really do that much. I love him, but he pretty much appeared at the Fords and said a line or two in Council - most of which was cut anyway, so it doesn't matter. By removing him and replacing him with Arwen (let's agree that artistic license has some bearing here), they were able to introduce Arwen to the audience and give a more concrete feel to her part, so that they weren't all flipping out when she showed up and married Aragorn. Yes, it was a bad choice for us because we know what should have been, but it beats confusing an entire audience and driving them away by having 60 characters with complicated names that do little more than have a couple lines and some equestrian action...
Yes, but Arwen didn't need to be introduced there. They could have used someone who actually showed the equestian skills and bravery to do that. Arwen had so many other scenes that it doesn't really matter.
That and the audience needs to be reminded of her and her relationship with Aragorn on occasion. What worked on paper would not have worked well on film. By having her in more often, people were able to see the development of their relationship. And it wasn't entirely made up but instead derived from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.
To me those scenes are just smooching and boring talk. I don't remember any of it in the appendices. It's not like people are going to forget about Arwen. They could always watch the FotR again. And for the people who haven't read the book, well if they can't take the time to read them why bother being a LotR fan anyway?
Courage is not the absence of fear; it's the realization that something else is more important than fear. The Wraiths are enough to scare the spit out of pretty much anything. Arwen also knew she could summon the Bruinen upon the Wraiths (in the book, it was automatic by Elrond and Gandalf), and so she challenged them to come for Frodo. If you're waiting for your opponent to come and they hesitate, wouldn't you repeat your challenge? Because they took the bait and she "drowned" them.
That wasn't in the book. She didn't have the power to raise the Bruinen. She at least could have put on a brave face. If she knew that the Bruinene would come up and wash them away then why be afraid? I wouldn't be scared if I knew that I could easily defeat my enemies without having to be harmed.
"I do not fear them" doesn't mean that they don't make her think twice. It means that she won't run away from them or give in because she's weak.
So does this mean she knew nothing at all about the Nazgul? Wouldn't she know that their main weapon is fear. If she knew nothing about Nazgul she would be a bad choice for that mission.
First yes, what Ana said. But just because it's not necessary, does it mean you don't do it? Technically, Gandalf didn't need a sword - he had power and a staff. Shouldn't he, by that token, not carried one either?
In the books Gandalf never really did the kind of magic that would be required to fight. Glamdring also helped as well. Wasn't Glamdring able to sense when orcs were near? Just like Sting? The kind of magic we see Gandalf doing is mostly defensive. Like the white light that made the Nazgul go away, and making the bridge break under the Balrog's feet.
And you don't need a car to go someplace. So does the world need to just obliterate cars? It's the same argument. She carried one because she could, and it was an aid, not because she had to.
Arwen never used her sword. Cars sometimes are needed to get to places. People who have broken legs or elderly wouldn't be walking from place to place. And other people might get tired of pushing them around. Cars also help people to get places faster so they can have more time and are less likely to be late when they have a time limet.
Arwen doesn't need to know of the Ring. But how do we know if she did or did not know where it was? There were certainly enough records of it floating around in the more thorough archives, and it wasn't like she was going to go and wait in Orodruin for Frodo to show up and kill him. Why not tell her? We don't know whether anyone did or no... And it can be assumed that she and Elrond spoke on occasion....
Galadriel if one of the most powerful elves on Middle Earth and she had difficulty resisting it. Arwen was not nearly as powerful as Galadriel. She might have taken the Ring from Frodo.
BECAUSE SHE IS WATCHING HIM DIE!!!! What kind of person can sit by and watch someone they've just spent several hours riding with to save die in front of their eyes without feeling some kind of pain? Not only does she likely feel that she failed him, but she's an Elf - they don't know the full extent of death and what it means to mortals, and then here she's getting the firsthand view of it with someone she's trying to save. Wouldn't that make you cry?
I find it hard to beleive that it was serveral hours. Instead of sitting there crying she could have taken all the way back to Rivendell. She didn't to sit there crying, she could have said what she said while trying to get him back to Rivendell before he died.
Immortals, one can guess from implication in various areas, do not understand that, because the concept of death isn't commonplace to be easily understood. Arwen lost her mother, but she did not lose her to death. She lost her uncle to death, but she never knew him. She's about to lose her father, but it's through her choice not to leave with him. Aragorn is, essentially, the first one close to her that she will lose to death and eternity. He is the first that she loved that she could lose in a way that she knew she would never see again, and she knows that this has nothing to do with her choice. Willing or no, she would lose him. Painful as it may have been to see her mother suffer and leave, she lived with the hope that she would see her again. She chose to make the decision that would sunder her from her father forever. She cannot make the choice to never see Aragorn again. That choice was never hers to make and it forces her to understand loss, especially as Elrond's sitting there shoving that point in her face and making it sound as though he's some gracious God because he's trying to spare her future pain...
Arwen knew that Aragorn would die. She acted like she had no idea that it would happen.
See my point about a father's wishes under the "she made him wait 60 years" argument... See mine
It was sudden. He walked up and pretty much broke it off - and none too gently, either. He showed up and said "it's over". Wouldn't that shock you a bit if a man you'd just pledged yourself to and that you both thought you'd spend eternity with just walked up and told you to forget about it? And start reading people's eyes; it's interesting: maybe Viggo's just a good actor, but there's no truth in his eyes. He's trying to sound as though he really believes it's for Arwen's good, but there's no confirmation of that belief in his eyes. It hurts him as much as it does Arwen because he's breaking it off because Elrond's being a stubborn idiot.
Arwen should have known that as well. And they didn't pledge and eternity together. They can't have. Aragorn would die eventually. Arwen should have expected it. Aragorn was going on a journey he likely wasn't going to return from. He didn't want Arwen to feel bound to Middle Earth if he died. He would want her to be free to leave for Valinor and have peace.
Evenstar = Arwen. Would Aragorn give that Evenstar to any of his children if he married another woman? For one thing, his wife would probably have something to say about his keeping the heirloom from another woman, and moreover, if anyone would have kept it, Aragorn would.
If he married another woman then he wouldn't love Arwen anymore. He might love her as a sister and count her as one of his family. Let's say he married Eowyn. Eowyn would understand what the Evenstar meant to Aragorn.
And yes, Aragorn was Elrond's foster son, but even so, her met Arwen when he was 20... She was, for the most part, not even there to be considered as a sister...
You don't need to know someone during your childhood to think of them as a sibling. The are people who I have only known for a year and haven't known my whole life that I love like sisters or brothers.
She's not hallucinating. It's a vision - Elves are gifted with foresight, some more strongly than others, and so she is seeing a vision to show her what she stands to lose. And Elves are much more calm about observations than we are: every Elf in that line probably saw her leave and wondered where in Hell she was going. But have you ever seen someone go by that you know will simply plow you over without thinking and continue if you try to stop them? Because Arwen probably looked like that. I don't know about you, but if I'd just gotten an idea that my dad had purposely kept information about my child from me and then sent me off to go where I couldn't return from, I'd be pretty irritated and just head back there to yell at him...
I thought only some elves could see the furture, like Galadriel. Wouln't she know that if two people got married they'd likely have children. Especially if they were King and Queen because they'd need an heir. She shouldn't have needed Elrond to tell her that she was going to have a child if she married Aragorn. She should have been able to infer that herself.
Elrond didn't tell her in order to get her to pass. He wanted her to pass so that he wouldn't lose his only daughter. And why else would the child be wearing the Evenstar? Like Ana said, would Aragorn just throw that on any child of his?
See past posts.
*is overwhelmed* I really need to get Maka over here.
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