Shattering Evenstar

[Angel]

The first time i saw RotK at the cinemas, i came away totally drained (lol yeah, i was one of those who cried my eyes out), but also quite disappointed at the confusion PJ made through Arwen's portrayal. Yeah, there was the whole controversy on it being her saving Frodo in FotR, but in RotK, there was also some.

Being an Arwen person, maybe it's only me who noticed, but...why on earth did Elrond tell Aragorn that Arwen is dying and the evil of the ring is affecting her?! I didnt get that.... (ok, if he had said she;s dying from grief, thats a little more acceptable even if it doesnt happen).

And the other thing was, ever since PJ shattered the evenstar pendant in the film, a good many (even myself at first) are convinced that Aragorn loses the jewel which Arwen gave to him as a sign of her immortal love. Even though you see Eldarion wearing the pendant in Arwen's vision, not all are bright enough to think at the end of RotK "no, he didnt break it, he couldn't of seeing his son will wear it".

Only when i got the RotK EE version and looked closer, we can see Aragorn still wearing the Evenstar after his 'Palantir Scene'. It really does look like he breaks the Evenstar, i know i was convinvced at one moment.

I dunno....i just dont see the point of that.

~ Angel ~

[Lady Elwen]

I had almost the exact same reaction. It didn't flow quite right, since Elrond basically appeared out of nowhere for no real reason.

I think they needed a reason to give Aragorn Anduril, but I'm constantly muttering about how if they'd given him the sword when they were supposed to, before he left Rivendell, they wouldn't have needed to bring Anduril tohim...

I think they also needed a reason to bring Arwen back into the picture; she really has no part in RoTK, and they obviously would not have mentioned her making the banner by way of her brothers. So I think they just came up with some random reason, realized Aragorn still needed his sword, and figured that the Elf would be affected by "evil". It still doesn't make sense, but oh well.

And yeah, I was convinced that he'd broken the Evenstar, as well, until I saw the ride from Gondor to the Morannon - there's the scene where the focus on Aragorn in Gondor's armor and you can see the Evenstar beneath his jerkin.

But ultimately, there wasn't a point. It was a way to bring Arwen back into the picture, give Aragorn the sword he should have had two films ago, and add another twist to the plot that they didn't need.

~ Elwen

[Angel]

All of which i find they couldve done a better storyline to.... But, i must admit, it's better than PJ's first idea to have Arwen fighting at Helm's Deep. Now THAT is stepping too far over the line.

Yeah, i agree that Arwen has no part in the RotK story apart from the happy ending. The vision and flashbacks to her crying was fine, just not the whole evil thing.... Didn't like it. Coz we all know Arwen suffered from grief in the end, and that couldve been said instead of the evil thing... Oh well.

Yeah i know...! It was only until the DVD came out when i saw that he still had it with him. Altho i didnt believe it when i saw it at the cinema, it did convince me for a few minutes i must say...

*sigh* better get that page up at .:LTAU:. one day regarding that. I've got it all planned out - just havent had the time!!!

~ Angel ~

[Elbereth]

*laughs* I was about sobbing through the whole film, Angel, so you're not the only one!

And yes, Arwen was disappointing... I can't understand tying her into the Ring and Sauron - the fact that they just needed a reason for Elrond to come with Anduril is one of those things that just really irritates me. Almost everything else I can even out with, but not with that. That just makes me mad beyond all comprehenstion.

And while I was delighted that Aragorn actually looked into the Palantir, that wasn't at all the way I pictured it. I thought it would be some huge affair with Aragorn declaring himself and Sauron trying to overthrow his strength and Aragorn resisting as they literally embark on a battle of wills. Only in this case, by dropping it and backing up, it seems as though Aragorn is not strong enough to fight Sauron all the way.

And then when he dropped the Evenstar and it shattered, while I admit that the effects were excellent and looked like shattering glass, I was really confused as to whether or not he had truly dropped it. It wasn't until I remembered that scene riding to the Pelennor that I realized he couldn't have broken it. And isn't Aragorn wearing it to the Pelennor?

And as a final note, all I have to say is that if they had finalized putting Arwen into Helm's Deep, I'd have had a cow. Literally or figuratively, well, you decide...

~ Elbereth

[Lady Elwen]

I think what they really needed with that connection was a way to bring Arwen into the third film. They picked a horrible reason for doing it, but, for people who are not at all familiar with the plot, it does work, in a way. It adds to the tension, and perhaps it could make sense - somehow, by giving up her immortality, she now pays the price for remaining. *shrugs* That's as close as I can come.

And I agree that the Palantir scene was nothing like I expected. Way too much of a giving-in type of look through that.

And while the effects of the shattering looked great, it didn't really fit... I think they showed that shot twice, although I could be wrong, and it just didn't quite fit. It really appeared that he had dropped it and broken it, but why would it break twice in dream sequences?

~ Elwen


I'm going to move the Arwen & Helm's Deep convo to another thread, so if anyone wants to go into that, feel free.

[Angel]

*grins* good to hear then lol

Yeah, i agree they needed a reason to put Arwen into the storyline but yes, bad pick however. I mean as a huge Arwen person, the more of her in the movies, the happier i am i guess you could say. Although i still do keep my head and when things just arent supposed to happen i myself get worked up - Arwen or not.

Yeah, the effects were very well done, it really looked like a shatter of glass, but what they didn't focus on enough was whether it actually did happen or not! I'm glad to see so far you've interpreted it as 'no it didn't break, it was just a dream/flashback'. Yeah they did show it twice, once in the theatrical version, but in the EE, it's twice.

~ Angel ~

[Lady Elwen]

It was a bad reason. Point blank period. They needed one, likely ran out of ideas, and came up with the random idea, probably realizing that they'd forgotten to give Aragorn his sword to begin with, and had a flash of what they probably thought to be inspiration. Yes, I'm just a wee bit bitter. Can you tell?

Yeah, other than the later glimpses, which are hard to see unless you're confused and looking for it, it's really tough to tell whether the Evenstar broke or not. Showing it twice as fake was really strange - usually having something like that seen again means that it actually happened.... Unless they forgot to cut the Evenstar from the ride to the Morannon, then I doubt it broke...

Seeing it on Eldarion's not the most concrete argument - you never know if that was just part of Arwen's vision, to help her identify him as her son; technically, he wouldn't be able to have it, as Arwen technically gave her Evenstar to Frodo later on in Minas Tirith, unless I interpret the "white gem like a star" incorrectly. (Ch. 6, ROTK Book 2, first page approx.)

~ Elwen

[Natalie]

Yeah I got confused there to...
Cos Aragorn is at Dunharrow and he has his dreamy sequence bit and it shows Arwen and then the evenstar falling...
But then what I was told was that after Aragorn looks in the palantir when he see's Arwen dying that he has a flashback and he remembers his dream when he saw that evenstar flashing...

But then that doesn't explain how Eldarion got the evenstar because your right Elwen Arwen gave it to Frodo in the books and I was convinced thats what happened in the movies...

*shrugs* But oh well.....

~Natalie

[Coriandra]

Angel said:

Being an Arwen person, maybe it's only me who noticed, but...why on earth did Elrond tell Aragorn that Arwen is dying and the evil of the ring is affecting her?! I didnt get that.... (ok, if he had said she;s dying from grief, thats a little more acceptable even if it doesnt happen).

~ Angel ~

If Sauron got a hold of the Ring again, Aragorn would be captured and killed, then Arwen would die of grief. That's the only way I could think of that her fate would be tied to the Ring. I think as Elwen said, they put it in to give Arwen a more important part in the story.

[Lady Elwen]

Which makes sense, but then why in Eru's name would Elrond tell Aragorn that Arwen's dying before any of that happened? He's got foresight, but it's not some "Arwen will die if you don't overthrow Sauron" (i.e. "she will commence dying", not "die if and when you do not"), but it's a "she is dying; now".

Does he have that much confidence in his foresight?

And actually, Aragorn might not have been captured (sorry....), since at that point, Sauron didn't know exactly who he was. He may have guessed, but the likelihood of Aragorn's capture was much slimmer at that point.

But yes, Arwen dying of grief there is about the best explanation we've given so far....

I personally still think that they needed more Arwen time and just didn't stop to think about what they were actually saying with that....

~ Elwen

[Natalie]

OKay i heard another very convincing argument for this point...

When Arwen saved Frodo from the Ringwraiths at the Ford of Bruinen (sp?) she says 'what grace is given to me let it pass to him save him....'
And so with that as Frodo's strength wanes so does hers...

So as Frodo is becoming more succumbed (not even sure if thats a word!) to the ring and his strength breaks then Arwen would become more and more so...

And as she chose to stay with a mortal she forsaked her immortality making her weak then and as (Frodo's strength waned) her strength waned she became weaker and was closer to death...

As we all know elves cannot become ill and die, so she cannot have been overcome by an illness...
Although elves can die from grief, and Aragorn had told her 'it was a dream Arwen, nothing more' so that might be another reason why she was dying although doesn't tie her life to the ring...

That explanantion also explains why she recovered so quickly and ties in with the fact that 'her fate is now tied to the ring' because the only way that Frodo would essentially fail is if he became overcome by the ring and he became a Wraith or he died, either way the same fate would follow Arwen (except she would die and not become a wraith)

And when she gave him the evenstar pendant at the end of the book it had supposedly lightened the pain and memories of the burdens he had carried....

Woah that was one of my longest posts...
~Natalie

[Lady Elwen]

Haha yeah, Nat, it kinda was.... And congrats - someone who can spell "Bruinen" correctly!!

So... I've heard most of this argument before, and, being the evil person that I am, I'm now going to attempt to refute most of it.

Nienna said:

When Arwen saved Frodo from the Ringwraiths at the Ford of Bruinen (sp?) she says 'what grace is given to me let it pass to him save him....' And so with that as Frodo's strength wanes so does hers...

I find that interesting, for all that it doesn't make sense: she passes on some of the grace of the Eldar that is hers by heritage. It doesn't mean that she has passed on said heritage or become bonded by blood to him. if they were somehow "permanently" intertwined with one another, then perhaps that would make sense, if, say, she did a blood binding to save him. She hasn't done so, however, and it therefore doesn't lend a whole lot sense to the argument.

Neither would she die if Frodo failed, unless Sauron took her. As previously stated, she was not directly bound to Frodo, so his death should not affect her in that sense.

Forsaking immortality also doesn't equate to weakness. All it really means is that she will not live forever - her lifespan is shortened significantly, although she will live until "all she has lost has been taken from her", but her strength shouldn't technically be altered, in canon terminology.

By way of the cinema, I can see where that might have come from, but by way of Elves and immortality as it is, it doesn't make sense.

Saying that Aragorn may have been part of that in saying "it was a dream" makes sense - in or out of canon. That may have left her grief-stricken, and in turn she gave into said grief. (Let's just blame it all on Aragorn... )

*shrugs* I still say the cinema was just out of ideas!! ;D

~ Elwen

[Mithwen Delbaeth]

I beleive Arwen's character was played upon way too much. She had no part in TTT and very small ones in FOTR and ROTK. They should have taken out all the unessisary Arwen stuff and added in something that was actually in the books. The whole scene with Elrond was unessisary as well. Not that I don't like Elrond or anything but Aragorn had had Anduril for the whole story by this time. I don't get the whole shattering evenstar thing. It makes no sense and is just plain confusing.

[Lady Elwen]

Yes, in a way, she was, for a character so little developed in the books. But, as I have stated many times before, having her appear in RoTK for the coronation would have confused the audience that didn't understand the books, and I think part of a good movie adaptation is making it comprehensible to both sides.

I couldn't agree more about Aragorn having Anduril, however; that's one of those things that I am drawing the sword and calling the army to go and find Peter, because I cannot, for the life of me, see what the point was, other than to make more random comments about how Arwen was now tied to the Ring and to make up for the absence of the twins and the Dunedain to deliver his message about the Paths. But if they'd just stuck to canon right there, that problem would never have come up!!!

*deep breath* Yeah. The shattering Evenstar was good the first time, seeing it in a dream, because it seemed to signify the possibilites of loss that enveloped Arda, but the second time made it seem that it had actually happened - that the reverie had become reality.

~ Elwen

[Anaroriel]

I found this a little late, but I'm still joining in....

I find that interesting, for all that it doesn't make sense: she passes on some of the grace of the Eldar that is hers by heritage. It doesn't mean that she has passed on said heritage or become bonded by blood to him. if they were somehow "permanently" intertwined with one another, then perhaps that would make sense, if, say, she did a blood binding to save him. She hasn't done so, however, and it therefore doesn't lend a whole lot sense to the argument.

Neither would she die if Frodo failed, unless Sauron took her. As previously stated, she was not directly bound to Frodo, so his death should not affect her in that sense.

I disagree with this. I think it makes sense that by saying "What grace has given me, let it pass to him, let him be spared" Arwen is giving her immortality right there. It may not be used right there, or only a portion of it, but it seems to me it is a promise to him that he will take her spot to Valinor. Furthermore, if we are staying close to Tolkien's ideals, even though this wasn't his idea the spirit remains close, he wouldn't want blood bonding. In his world, I sincerely doubt any blood bonding would bind any creature's life forms together. It just seems so un-Tolkien-like.

Another point I would like to bring, is that just by saying the words in the book, Arwen bound herself to Aragorn. I think that makes sense in the way that Elves have a power, and it's possible that her words alone, in her spell would actually give the immortality to Frodo. And why can't words along have a power? Just by saying the dark words of Mordor caused a reaction in Rivendell. And following along with the movie, her words caused the river to rise and turn into horses. It's entirely possible that her words, spoken in a spell had some affect. If Frodo held her immortality, then it would explain how her life was connected to the Ring.

[Lady Elwen]

Good point with the power of the spoken word, but even so, I beg to differ.

When Arwen spoke to Aragorn, she gave the direct words, "I will cleave to you, Dunadan, and turn from the Twilight" (Tale of A&A), where she is directly stating her willingness to pass. With Frodo, there is not that clearly defined line. She is giving him her strength, yes, but it does not seem the kind of passage akin to that of more permanence. Besides, her foresight, when present, was very, very weak, and how could she have given Frodo leave to take her place in Valinor? She had a vague perception, perhaps, of what he would face, but how could even she foresee his furture need for that blessing? I'm not saying that words hold no power; it is clear they do. I am, however, saying that word choice holds more of that power.

In the films, they did not explain Arwen's bequeathing of her passage to Valinor to Frodo; it seemed as though he just went because he was a Ringbearer. Perhaps that may have been what it was to tie back into, but I can't agree with it, because it doesn't make sense. In terms of canon, there's no validity whatsoever, but that much is obvious.

~ Elwen

[Anaroriel]

Bah. Who needs canon?

You have a good point, but I disagree once again. I think it is more of opinion than anything else. I could tell you my reasoning behind it again, but it won't really give any gainsay to me. It was just an idea, and frankly, I don't think PJ and crew were thinking about that too carefully. So perhaps you are right, but only by lack of analyse on the scriptwriters' part.

[Lady Elwen]

Who needs canon? ME!!!!!! ;D

It goes both ways - everything does... I agree with parts of what you're saying, I don't agree with other parts, and yeah, I still think that the direct representation that Arwen spoke of to Frodo in Gondor was more of his ticket than anything else, nevermind that she wasn't even supposed to be at the Fords to begin with, but hey.

To each his own, and I HAVE to agree with you that Peter and crew weren't thinking too carefully on that.

~ Elwen